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 Update on this year's projects!

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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:57 am

In a nut shell, 96 ½ & below have the Cobra engines. Now the 96 ½ up explorer have the GT40P heads, a ballzy little powerplant! The main issue with that engine was trying to find an exhaust header system to fit the fox. The GT40P heads flow better than the GT heads. Shorty headers have been available from JEGS or Summit.
If you can find a low mileage 5.0 with GT40P heads, go for it, some of the other mustang sites claimed to have stuffed the whole engine & transmission into the Rustangs.
I like the DIS system much more than the distributor and coil & TFI crap.
Every time we modify, we sacrifice…..
The PCM’s get faster and more accurate as the models change, power goes up, emissions go down etc.
Get the PCM that matches the engine, however i have yet to see a manual trans in an Exploder trans, i’m sure they are about there, you’ll just have to have a PCM from auto zone or somebody, that is programmed for man trans.
No the EGR stuff will not work from the old motor to the new motor without a lot of mods, even the exhaust system is better on the later 5.0, no more tab/tab and pump crap!!
Good luck; stuff it in there!!!!
I've never seen a GT 40P 5.8 litre, maybe Raush did them??
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:19 pm

The '93-95 Lightning and Cobra R used GT40 5.8s. Not common cars, so that's why the lower intakes are so pricey. I doubt Ford ever sold them aftermarket. The uppers are just the GT40 uppers used on 5.0Ls, so that's no issue finding one of those.

I've heard of guys using custom ECMs with Explorer motors. That sounds expensive. But, I think my biggest thing is, I want it to look like it could have come originally on the car. That's why I don't want to go aftermarket with the heads or intake. You open the hood and see an aftermarket intake, and it always screams "TRICKFLOW!!" or "EDELBROCK!!" Plus, the aftermarket ones are wicked expensive.

I was looking at some pictures last night, and Explorer engines have that elbow that puts the throttle body 90* to where it is on a Mustang. The EGR is mounted on that elbow, at least on some. I guess I'd rather not use the elbow if I can help it. We'll see. I've heard there are aftermarket EGR spacers you can get that have a larger bore. That might be a way to go that doesn't scream aftermarket.

Oh, and what about this: My current engine is a '90 model. Is that one of the years they had forged pistons? If so, it seems like it would be a good idea to transfer the Explorer stuff to my existing shortblock, rather than swapping in a whole Explorer engine. Right?
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:44 pm

I cant remember all the piston stuff anymore, but I thought the pistons were hypertutonc?? or something.

I think I know where a 5.0 cobra upper & lower intake, runner, & injectors are, last I heard he was asking around 300 bones, however it does say cobra on it.

what exactly are you looking for, more HP? my buddy Bruce used to build some pretty outstanding 5.0's, his motors looked stock until they started.

I just wonder if the bolt patterns for the cobra lower intake is the same as the one for the GT40p in the explorers intake runners??

I don't like spending a boat load of cash to advertise their products for "up to" an average of 10-20 hp gain. if it were true and if you add all the hp gains for each bolt-on item, you'd be screaming HP and bankrupt!

if you have mass air, there are plenty of mods to the old 5.0 that make real HP. the 5.0 is a very sought after engine, people love them, I certainly did.

I seem to remember something about the intake mounts to the heads differently, I can not remember.

once all the mods are done to the engine, you still have to tune it with a programmer.

I suppose that I'll have to do a bit of research now, as I'm curious.

also the only Fairmont I ever saw with fuel injection, serpentine belt drive, 130 amp alternator, 4 wheel disc brakes, tilt wheel and a mustang dash was mine & yours, that could be a problemo with the general public, on the other hand, not a lot of people even know what a Fairmont is.

I know how important it is to keep things stock, but who looks under my hood? mine looks stock to the average Joe as everything is the same-no chrome, or edelbrock or trick flow or anything else that costs money. damn it I do have a new radiator cap, bugger, I'll have to change that.

I did my car for me, (many times) and truthfully, I kinda like the old girl, and if someone else wants to run it down, that's fine, I built it myself, I didn't buy it, it will never win a car show, I drive it all the time, rain snow or sunshine. it's kind of a rolling testament that I'm nuts.

I wonder if the hood would close with the explorer engines intake? I'd like to think it would.

you are fortunate enough to have the foresight to plan ahead, and you make good decisions, so you are one of the few people I would let work on mine if it broke down near your place.

there are a lot of hacks out there, some get lucky and others just blame crappy parts, I never heard of a manufacturer that sells crappy parts to promote their business....

now I got to find out more about theses 5.0 engines, you know AJE sells motor mounts for the 5.0 block that bolt on to their k-members...

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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:45 am

There's a video series on Youtube where a guy swaps an Explorer intake onto his '87-93 Mustang GT. He just bolts it right on. I assume he just had the stock E7 heads because he had the original intake. It's not a very good video. he puts the camera down while he's wrenching aimed at nothing in particular, and mumbles about what he's doing here and there. I don't think he ever says anything about EGR or the elbow or anything.

When I worked on cars at a dealership, I remember in those 5.0L Explorers, the engine seemed to sit unusually low in the engine bay. I don't think the intakes are any taller than the stock Mustang one. I wouldn't mind a Cobra intake. we'll see, I guess.

I don't know what I'm after in doing this. I just know Explorers are SUPER common in junkyards, and the local U-Pull has really reasonable prices on stuff like that. A little more seat-of-the pants power would be nice, considering I'm sitting at the factory 225 horsepower, and your average family sedan has at least 250 these days.

I probably won't be able to do this even in the next year. I think I just want something to occupy my mind since I've pretty much decided how to handle my suspension problem. haha.

Oh, and the ECM thing. You can't program an EEC-VI computer with a programmer, so I assume you're talking about an Explorer ECM? I would be interested in knowing where these guys that get custom ECMs get them and what they cost.

I do have mass air.

And I have a QA1 K-member. It's awesome having better access to the bottom of the engine. Although, inexplicably, there was LESS room for exhaust. haha
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:01 pm

I've been searching on the internet this morning, I really like stangnet, they seen to be where it's at.it would seem 86-92 has forged pistons, some guys argue over which is best claiming the hyper><)( whatever pistons are lighter etc, but when it came to the heads, they all seem to agree that the GT40P heads are the best, better flow and smaller combustion chambers.
try out stangnet and form your own opinions. as I said the headers are now available from JEGS or Summit. right now JEGS has free shipping.

I kinda wish I kept that 5.0, I could keep swapping engine for a gag!!! maybe something like keep the 4.6 pcm and 5.0 PCM both under the seats, i'd just have to make a jumper loom!!! that's pie in the sky because of many other issues like fuel lines, but I suppose it could be done.

when you go to reputable tuner who has a dyno, they will program your pcm as part of the tune, a guy from work took his car to phoenix, they put it on the dyno and did the programming. then gave him a CD so he could do fine tuning with his laptop. however this was a Honda,but they do Fords also..
my bud Gravy, bought a handheld tuner online for his 99 mustang, i'm thinking it was a diablo.we tried to use it on another car, but it seems once you put the vin# in, it will only recognize that car.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:40 pm

I've been reading threads on Four Eyed Pride about it. A LOT of differing opinions. One guy's opinion sounded interesting to me. He said the heads don't really make that big of a difference. The biggest help is the GT40 lower intake. Obviously, if you get the lower, you need the upper. But that sounded good to me, haha. Save me a lot of trouble swapping heads. Maybe when the time comes, I'll grab an early Explorer intake with the EGR that the most similar to what I have, and then some later Explorer GT40P heads, and then just save them until I find a 351.

From what I've seen on FEP though, most guys just run their A9P or A9L computers ('87-93). I guess maybe if I could find a '93 Cobra ECM, that might be good though. Good to know about the forged piston though. I'll definitely check out Stangnet though. I was on there YEEEEAAARRRSS ago. It was the first car forum I was ever on.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:23 pm

I joined stangnet some time ago, and participate from time to time, they have a lot of useful info, their moderators are pretty stiff on wrong info.

how much of a HP gain are you looking for. are you going to have a BIG cam. crazy hp equates to more cash and less reliability.

I see some of these guys are making stroker engines, it seems the 331 is more reliable than the 347, however Ford does sell a 347 stroker engine guaranteed to 2 or 3 years.

at least you have the time to think it all out, and are not in a rush.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:37 pm

I was thinking of just using whatever stock cam is best. I'm not looking to make ridiculous power. This car is a cruiser. I think i'm really just looking for something cheap & stock that will make a difference I'll notice. I'll probably go to an aftermarket shorty header, especially if I swap to the GT40P heads. MAYBE some 24lb injectors if it needs it.

I'm fairly sure I could put together a 351 for cheaper than a stroker. Grab a used truck engine, put the GT40 heads and intake on it, some headers, and go. I've heard the Lightning (GT40) cam is milder than the stock 5.8 truck cam, so I would think the stock truck cam would do just fine for me. Maybe put the Explorer intake on my 302 in the meantime.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:11 pm

don't forget the trucks have bank fire EFI systems, not SEFI. I'm uncertain which way the distributor rotates on the 5.8 engine or what the firing order is. but sounds like a plan. 1st Fairmont ES with a injected 5.8 litre.
I hope your not getting like me, changing things around out of boredom from contentment...
the first sign of this disease is you go to Wal-Mart and buy some plastic garbage cans to store parts in....then you buy a thumb drive to download all the research or vice versa.

I have no knowledge whatsoever about fitting different injectors in different cars, or where to find reliable info, does the PCM need to be reprogrammed??
I'm off for town now to get some glue, any excuse to put miles on this heap!
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:51 pm

Yeah, I wouldn't use the truck 351 ECM for that. Does whether it's bank fired affect how they design the cam? As far as I know, the fuel just hangs there until the valve opens. I also wonder if cams are interchangeable between 302s and 351s. I'm not sure if trucks have different firing order either. Have to find out, I guess. I don't know about your point about reprogramming for different injectors either. I just thought it stands to reason I'm cramming more air in, my exhaust is already wide open (no cats), so it would benefit to have more fuel too. You'd think with the O2 sensors telling the ECM what the air fuel ratio is, it should be able to adapt. Maybe I'm wrong about that, I don't know.

This is just what I'm used to, thinking about what to change next, haha. Early on with this project, I decided I would keep myself busy with little changes and improvements to tide myself over while I avoided trying to fix the things that were really wrong with it. Now that I have almost all that sorted out (should have it ALL sorted with the spring swap!) I don't know how to stop planning different improvements, haha. Plus, I'm always plotting different things I can do to make it even more unique, haha. It's likely that mine is the only ES with an EFI 5.0L, but that's not good enough!! haha
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Oooohhhhh. I asked the question about how injector size affects the ECM on FEP, and the guy said you can get a MAF set up for your injector size. I remember that now. I had a C&L MAF on my car when I got it, and I swapped it for a stocker because it was set up for larger injectors when I was trying to fix my idle problem. I'm pretty sure it's set up for 24 pounders, so I already have what I need there waiting in the wings!
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:59 am

so it's that easy???? are 5.8 fuel injectors 24lb?
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:30 pm

That's another question I don't know the answer to. I read somewhere too that truck 302s use a different firing order than car ones, but truck 351s use the same as car 302s... Doesn't make a lot of sense...
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:38 am

that's not correct sir, even the California emissions vehicle use the bank fire system. I was looking at the PCM wiring for a 95 F150.

it's not a case of correct or incorrect,I just don't want you to make any mistakes that can be avoided. however I am wondering what the firing order is for the 5.0 & 5.8, I'm thinking if the firing order is the same, and if you were to use the 5.0 pcm and your wiring loom from the salt & pepper shakers to the injectors, you should have success.

my buddy Jeff was doing this 351 roller engine for his mustang, I don't know if he finished it yet or not.

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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:05 pm

I don't think firing order has anything to do with whether it's bank fired or not, does it?

But yeah, I was thinking I'd use the Mustang harness. Or maybe, if I decide to really be a glutton for punishment... an Explorer harness. I think they have the PCM under the hood, don't they? That would save me from having to move mine under the seat or something. haha. Plus I could use the distributorless ignition.

I was looking around at springs a little bit. Ford Racing makes these "sport" springs that look like they're pretty mild in comparison to some lowering springs. They do lower the car some, but are variable rate, so they ride better than linear rate. They're a pretty good value at only about $170 for all 4. Just for grins and giggles, I looked up OEM '94 GT springs on the Ford Parts site. They are about $160 EACH. Why the hell are new OEM parts always so dang expensive?!
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:46 am

Yeah;I believe the exploders pcm is under the hood, you could always tuck it under the fender. however there is also a lot of emission stuff on those engines, this came be overcome by turning things off in the PCM, like PATS etc.

if you were to make a stroker engine, it would look the same from the outside. that should give a little stealth.

so many decisions.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:53 pm

Well, PATS can just be bypassed, I would think. Isn't it just a module with a 2 wire connector? Twist the wires together, bypassed.

And yeah, building a stroker would save me from having to track down and pay for a 351 GT40 lower intake, but the rest of it would cost a lot more. I dunno. I like the idea of a 351 still.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:14 pm

twist the pats wires together, and your not going anywhere. they usually have 4 or more wires and use a transceiver to communicate to the pcm, however you can turn pats and other things like the rear 02's off in the pcm and a bunch of other stuff. pats can get way complicated, for such a simple device, I never have figured out how to get around it myself.

my buds cougar has a 351 engine that is way wicked powerful, I don't know how much cash his brother threw into the engine & trans (c4)but rumor has it around 20k. I've ridden in it and it is really scary, no traction, just too many balls. after a really good run it blows oil out of the transmission dipstick.

I'm beginning to get bored with this 4.6, it's nice, but there is no thrill factor any more. it has grunt, gets better fuel mileage, runs well, something's missing, maybe I need a deeper sound exhaust or something. I may be putting the new PI heads on it soon, they only have 30k.

I was thinking that maybe the reason is that the C4 was only a 3spd and engine made a perky sound. it may be the overdrive lowering the rpm, hell I am down almost half a liter in cubes, and 10 horses down, so that tells me the engine is overall more efficient.

I'm thinking this cruiser crap is for the birds. I like it because it is different, smoother etc, but I miss the little red wagon ride.

I'm going to try for a while and see.

no doubt the 351 is a performer in it's own right, they are plentiful at times (roller engines). you should have a pavement pounder when its done. it's an additional .8 litre or 50 cubes in displacement. go on, do it, you know you want to. don't worry about the cash, it will come, and the 5.0 is still sound as a rock, so what do you have to lose. look how many times I've changed my engines, no real regrets, just experience and progress, although 4.6 3valve is starting to sound sweet and cheaper. the 5.0 coyote is "unobtainium" right now.

just imagine, the first Zephyr 5.8 injected having the ability to shred tires and the intelligence to refrain...until needed.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:34 pm

Haha, well, that's good they didn't make bypassing PATS too easy for the thieves. I thought I remembered seeing that in a car's steering column that had it, a two wire connector.

I think you get more than the factory 260 horses from a PI engine if you put PI heads on a non-PI engine. Probably worth a look! Should get you close to 300 horse, and if not, look at the plentiful mods that are out there for the 4.6. Supercharger, perhaps? Or is that too easy for you? haha

If it were me, and I already had a 4.6, I wouldn't bother with a 3-valve. I mean, yes, it's a better starting point, but really, it's not THAT much better than what you have. It wouldn't be worth it to me to adapt a whole new set of electronics, wiring, etc, etc. You can build what you have to the 3-valve's level without breaking a sweat. Now, a Coyote... that's another story. haha

I like cruisers for several reasons. First, fast is expensive. Second, the faster it is, the harder it is to drive on the street. I mean, I know there's a threshold somewhere around 350 horse, so I have plenty of room to grow, but still. I'm not interested in a race car that you can't run errands with, sit in traffic if you have to, or throw a picnic in the trunk and go to the beach, or out of town. You're not going to want to ride in a car with a stiff ride for two or three hours. Cars that can't do that stuff are useless to me. Maybe if I had the room and the money for several cars, I wouldn't mind having a race car, but I don't. I need all 3 of our cars to function as cars.

The biggest reason not to invest in a new engine for me is, my wife is most likely under the impression the Zeph project has an end point. Plus, I've been going on and on about how I just want a cruiser. And, once the ride is sorted out, my car will be a perfectly acceptable cruiser. I've heard plenty on the car forums about guys having it out with their wives, divorces, and whatever else. I know what's really important. My car is NOT going to come between me and my wife. I don't know. I'll have to test the waters. It won't be in 2014, I know that much. haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:49 am

Yeah; i kinda know what you mean, we argued about the GTO for around 10 years or so, i sometimes think she felt that car was ‘THE OTHER WOMAN”. I also believe once the car was gone, she realized it wasn’t true, and it did hurt me. Perhaps if it was me who decided to get rid of it, things would be different. I had that car before we met, and to watch it decline was sad. Oh well….
My fiend Ian’s wife would threaten him if he even thought about a Dodge Charger; we found a shipping company to ship the car to his doorstep England. I thought his wife was one of those ladies that you read about after they kill their husband!!!!
I wanted this car to go on trips with, maybe it’s just early days and i lost the gist of my plans, or maybe i expected too much……i have done a hell of a lot of work to this one lately, and no barking as of yet. Maybe it’s that the car is nearing completion, and the boredom factor is rolling in. I’m starting do my famous “SHUDDA DONE THIS, SHUDDA DONE THAT” style of 20/20 hindsight….i have problems with this kind of stuff, as i have a low boredom tolerance.
I don’t criticize what other people do their cars, for whatever reason, i find it interesting, some guys are broke, some are loaded, some are some are ingenious, some guys need help, but we all get along fine. Maybe if we all got together and built “one” car it would be a complete disaster!!!!
I have to ask, are you considering a “351” from the old days or a “5.8” style 351? Because the cougar has an old style 351, and Jeff’s car has a 5.8; completely different engines.
Coyote engine……YEAH…… Anyway there is no provision for a power steering pump unless you want to lose the A/C. I’m sure a kit will come out soon. They are still pretty expensive, even a complete car from the insurance company would be stretching things too tight.
I’m not interested in a race car; i like watching them. Superchargers are cool, but costly.
Wife/family or a car…..no brainer, we’ve been married for 32 years.


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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:10 pm

Bummer about your GTO. At least you guys seem to have learned from the experience.

I'm thinking a 5.8, probably from an early '90s truck. That's what Ford adapted to the GT40 Lightning engine. Plus you get roller cam, and so on. If possible, I'd like to leave the short block as is, and just put the GT40 heads and intake on and go. But obviously if the firing order is different, i'll have to change the cam and so on.

With a Coyote, couldn't you adapt the electric steering to work on whatever you drop it into? Coyote swaps are out there, I wonder what people do? I know they are priced in the stratosphere right now though. Maybe a 5.0 from a recent F150 would be more reasonable? I say stick with what you've got, and maybe look at tweaking it if it's not doing it for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:21 pm

Yeah, I have to stick with the "plan" or all will be lost. today i received a dash mat for the FANG, my wife went and ordered one for me, she even got the year and model correct, and got the one for the dash mounted clock!!! that was a surprise!!

I haven't seen a lightning in a while, but I do remember them quite well. I'm certain it would be worth it just to know the part # for the heads and intake intakes.

I don’t know if you are aware, but the speed control switches in your really cool strg whl have the same resistance values as the later cars. Now as yours is a 90 or 91 model, you don’t have a clock spring, it will have slip rings on the back of the strg whl. So you can install a modern cruise control module!!!!

Once you figure out exactly what you want, the rest will be easy. Putting the engine together is like low hanging fruit. It’s just getting you mind set on what you want. I’m not a big fan of really harsh camshafts with gear drives and a really loud exhaust. It’s got it’s time and place, but the cat is out of the bag right away and every kid in town with a fart-can exhaust will try to challenge you.

Obviously you’ll build the car for yourself, not the general public; and since you prefer the manual trans, some of those six speeds are nice but unobtainium for me, i could buy a lot of junk mustangs for that!!!! Where do they get their prices???? But there is a lot of options not available for the automatics.

Do you have any long trips on the bucket list???? It would be nice to show up in a sweet little Zephyr. If i go the a hotel, i like to park out frt under the lights in case of vandalism. Some people think not so nice thoughts; hey did you see that piece of shite parked out front, yeah that’s where i parked it…….ha ha!!!!

Hey its suppertime, gotta split, if you want specific part #’s let me know, I’ll do that for you
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:02 am

check this one out:

FORD RACING FOX BODY 351W/5.8L ENGINE SWAP OIL PAN KIT -- M-6675-A58
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:54 pm

I just looked up some pictures of a Saleen S351 engine, and it appears to use the '93 Cobra upper intake. Those are the same as the GT40s used on the Explorer. So that tells me it's a pretty dang good intake!

Yeah, I know the 5.8 swap oil pans are out there. I'm not too worried about that. I just thought it was interesting they are different from 5.0 oil pans. Not much reason for that, in my opinion.

I'll probably just be honest with the guy and tell him I got a little ahead of myself and I'm not really ready to buy. His price is perfectly justified if you look at them on eBay. No reason not to try and lowball him anyway though. haha.

I'm thinking about doing LEDs in my dash too. You know how that dash is. The gauges are pretty dang dim compared to the newer cars in my stable.
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fangar150-ex



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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:36 pm

I don't know, this time of year, cash is cash, he may be full of the cheer and do the deed. im assuming that the one you are talking about has the square/staggered plenum holes?

yeah, but the dash's look better in a Fairmont than they should.

the older bulbs turn black after a few years, and that makes them dim also. it appears that they turn black or burn out quicker when they are dimmed.

LED run much cooler. the main problem I've incurred with led is the terminal corrosion. some tail/turn/brake like bulbs come with resistors for the t/sig flasher, some have to be added.

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Update on this year's projects!
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