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 Update on this year's projects!

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fangar150-ex



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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:54 pm

check this out:

351W Swap FAQ - Five.Oh Info :: The Foxbody Mustang Site

or

www.fiveohinfo.com/performance/302-351w-swap.html

same site.

some great info.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:33 pm

Well, I sent the message to the intake guy. We'll see what happens, haha.

That link has a lot of good stuff, thanks!

Had the talk with the wife last night. I think she WAS under the impression there would be an end point. She wasn't all that against spending more money on it though. I don't know WHEN it will make sense to do, but I think I'm okay at least buying springs and sticking an Explorer intake on my 302 this year. That way I'll already have my upper for the 5.8.

I don't know if I have the patience to try and pull the GT40 heads off an Explorer from the junkyard. We'll have to see how it goes with the intake. I always seem to be running against the clock (closing time) when I'm there. Plus, I don't have much in the way of cordless tools that would really come in handy, like an impact and sawzall.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:46 am

Well that's GOOD that the wife isn't stopping you.
If it were me I would stop any upgrades or work on the 5.0 engine for now, unless it was necessary.
The best start point for the engine upgrade is to buy an engine stand and drip tray first, that way when you have the engine you will have a place to store it and it’s mobile. I’ve seen the drip trays in the catalog that actually fit the engine stand.
Providing you find a set of heads in the boneyard, try using stealth, get the price for the heads, start the stripping operation, and if you can’t get the heads off by the end of the day, ask how much to finish pulling them, they usually work with you….if you get there early enough, you should be ok, and you’ll have a shite load of extra nuts and bolts, plus the experience of knowing what goes where and any differences.
I have a digital camera for work, i use it for reference, PCM part#, module part# and if damage is noted in the car like burned wiring, rodent damage, I can send the customer an email.  Don’t forget to take a pic of the chassis # & milage if possible.
I was kind surprised that the 5.0 and 5.8 distributor shaft to the oil pump was bigger, i think that may be better!!
I’d be more worried about getting the wiring loom and any sensors you can snag.as you know; once the intake is off the heads are easy.
I’m glad you sent the message to the guy, he may be willing to work with you.
Yesterday i went in to work to pick up a couple of things and grab some free lunch, there was a Chevy pick-up with a supposedly 383 GM crate engine . he just had a new trans installed and some new tires and some lower rear end gears and a posi unit fitted, it looks ok and sounds kinda good, but he was annoying the hell out of  me by revving the engine up and doing burn-outs in the parking lot. He came back in the workshop shortly afterwards, and i started mine up and let it idle nice & quiet, i shouted over if he wanted to see how “F------ing slow” his truck was, the shop went silent, and he parked his money pit, it was nice to have some peace and quiet. I was thinking more of Richard’s 55 Chevy against his truck…….mind games are fun, however peace and quiet is PRICELESS!!! it's ok we'll never be friends.....
How much do they want for a 5.8 engine in the boneyards over there???? Supposedly the 5.8 were also in some explorers???
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:26 pm

Good call on bringing a camera to the boneyard. The one I like to frequent has set prices on most things. They are VERY reasonable though, that's why I like it. Plus the yard is fairly neat.

I just figured I'd do the GT40 intake on the 5.0 just as a "might as well" kind of thing. I'll need the upper for the 5.8 anyway. I'd leave the heads for the 5.8 though. And I'm leaning more towards just using my existing wiring and ECM now. I found an Explorer intake on Craigslist last night for $100. Pretty reasonable, I thought. Most you see on eBay are $250 and up!

Is it just me, or does it seem like Chevy guys are just more obnoxious about that sort of thing? Awesome you were able to shut him up though, haha.

I've never heard of a 5.8 Explorer. I don't know much about the Saleen Explorers though. Maybe they had it. Or in the '70s and '80s when "Explorer" was a model of the F-series truck. I'm sure some of those had 5.8s. haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:47 pm

Ive only read about them, never seen one, didn't know Saleen made them.
maybe the guy should do that in front of his house, it just gets annoying, if he saw what he looked like he wouldn't do it.
nice price on the intake.
wont the GT40 intake fit the 5.8 block with the GT40 or GT40P heads??
it looks as though the heads will have to drilled out to accommodate the larger 5.8 head bolts.
I was reading about the balance if the engine using 28 oz weights, that's like the older pre injection engines used, so a flywheel should be no problem....
I like the idea that there are kits to accommodate the accessories for the serpentine belt drive system. seem reasonable.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:45 pm

The 5.0 GT40 lower intake will not fit the 5.8 because of the taller deck height. The heads are farther apart. And yes, the GT40 heads will need to be drilled for the larger mounting bolts.

Oh, I didn't know 5.8s ever came factory with the 28 oz weights. that's good. It means someone makes them, and they're not super-rare. Super rare like the 5.8 GT40 lower intake is!

I think in that link you sent me they just mean you need different accessory brackets if you want to be able to use a stock belt. I don't really care about that. The belt I have now, with my under drive pulleys and eliminated smog pump and A/C is a random length, and I know how to walk into an auto parts store and ask for one. Not too worried about that. I guess I do want to put A/C back on the car at some point though...
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:30 pm

cool.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:18 pm

You have any idea what an engine rebuild would cost me?

I've been looking on Craigslist a little bit, and there are a lot of 5.8s out there, but most have pretty high miles, like almost 300,000 miles. I figure the block will most likely need some machine work no matter what I do, plus if I have a pro do the whole rebuild, then I avoid any problems that would come with worn out parts. and essentially i would have a fresh engine.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:35 am

300k??? I’ve never seen one with that many miles! I’m not an engine builder, I’m an electrician, so i can’t say, and even so, you won’t really know until you get the actual engine. There are so many parts to choose from; individual, kits, complete long blocks with crazy warranty, even AutoZone sells them.a machine shop could be cheaper than doing it yourself as it would more or less be a package job.


Patience is a virtue, try to find one local if you can, As you will need more things as you go along, this could be an influential price motivator in the future. I would think if a trk has 300k, it must have had rebuild or rebuilt engine at one time or another.

Once the engine is disassembled and measured, you’ll have a better idea. I know that machine work on the heads over here is right at $225, incl the valve guides, but not the valves, but valves are cheap anyway, depending on how many you need. Most machining operations are about the same, not really dependant on size, but time involved.

Boring the cylinders, align boring and crank polishing or grinding is dependent on wear/damage and your relationship with the machinist and how much of a hurry you are in. if you have the time, that will usually affect the price. We had one machinist close-down, he was good, just couldn’t make it.

It sounds like a fun project, and i reckon you will see an immediate gain in power, how much does it cost to rebuild a 5.8, don’t care, how does it feel pounding pavement with a beasty 5.8; priceless.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:26 pm

Yeah, I've started thinking about going reman for the shortblock. Haven't really looked to see what's out there though. I'm sure I don't need some "race-prepped" BS like I've seen in magazines where they cost some $4000. I don't think Ford Racing even offers a regular 351. Everything they have is some kind of stroker.

I'm never the one who "knows a guy". I always walk in the front door like a regular customer and pay full retail. I don't know if it's just luck or what. Most people I know aren't even car fans.

I'll be really happy if I end up around 300 streetable horsepower. Then I could show those grannies in Maximas and Camrys what's what. haha
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:57 pm

From what I can find online, reman engines are way more costly that I want to go. Plus almost no one offers short blocks.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:55 am

you'll need to go to the machine shop, tell the guy what you are hoping to achieve and get a estimate for what you want to do.
he may be interested enough to give you a good deal if your in no hurry.
you can try Jasper engines, AutoZone and o'reilly. what year short block are you looking for?
I wouldn't think Ford Racing would offer a normal short block, but the Ford dealer certainly does.
if you like I can get some quotes.
when I order any parts from ford racing, it always comes to our Ford dealership with no freight; thru the normal deliveries.
might also be able to do something from NAPA.
let me know, I want to hear about the method of "stamping" (like they did on the WWII planes) when you use the ricer baiting method.
will you need a special stamp for each type, Honda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, and Toyota, or will you just use a generic stamp. it may be best to use shoe polish on the back glass instead painting the frt fenders.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:51 pm

Sure, couldn't hurt to ask for quotes, I guess. Everything I've seen though, dealership prices for OEM parts are like 3 times what anyone else would charge for the same thing. No freight would certainly help though. I've seen something like $300 for that.

I'm hoping for a '94 and up "roller-ready" block. I actually found short blocks at either NAPA or O'Reilly, can't remember which, and it costs as much as a long block! I don't know if that was a mistake or what, but that was ridiculous.

Haha, yeah, I'd put them in the window before on the fender.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:39 pm

realistically a short block is harder to find and harder to sell, and difficult to give a warranty. sometimes its cheaper to purchase a long block.

ok; I'll get on it.

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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:29 am

go to napa online auto parts

see if this is the engine you want:

Part Number: ATK HD19

Product Line: NAPA IronClad
Attributes:

Complete Engine Size & Type : Ford 351w 94-97 Comp Eng

Warranty:
See Manufacturer's Complete Written Policy

GSA1 / NFWP (No Fault Warranty Program)

Warranty PDF
Important Information:
Dipstick In Block
HDE (High Durability Engine)
w/ Knock Sensor In Block
Roller Cam
w/ Smog Holes In Rear Of Heads



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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:42 pm

Yeah, it is, thanks! That price isn't so bad, I suppose. You do get a pretty much new engine.

I posted some questions about a 5.8 engine swap on my local car forum and a lot of those guys who really know what they're talking about are trying to steer me away from an engine swap, and doing heads, cam, intake on my 302, or stroking it. We'll see, I guess. It won't be until summer 2015 I start to look at doing anything. Gotta pay for a tires, springs, and a deck this summer. I'll have to have a conversation with Stymee too about fitting a 351. That's what he has. Say, do you know how much heavier a 4.6 is than a 5.0? Maybe not at all, I suppose since they have aluminum heads, right? The reason I ask is, some companies that make springs don't differentiate between 4.6 appllications and 5.0, which seems odd to me. Plus I found some '97 Cobra springs locally, and I'm wondering how they will work.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:06 am

If i had consulted to most people about my Fairmont, it would be a bumper for a Chevy, or a wheel for a Hyundai. You gotta do what you want to do. There are a lot of people on other sites that seem to have loads of cash lying around in boxes…..that’s one of the reasons i left Modded Mustangs and some other sites, i didn’t like the way some of the newer members were insulted when they asked genuine questions.
I would suppose that talking to Stymie would be the best info you can get. Since he’s done it, he’ll know if any other special parts are required, or about the power gains. I cant see any cons.
Some specs i found online from coral-net
“Well...Lightning247 had a good idea so I called ford racing:

302 GT40 - 425 lbs

351 w/GT40 Al Heads - 545 lbs

Mach 1 4.6L 32 Valve - 614 lbs

Lincoon Navigator 5.4L 32 Valve - 660 lbs

As advertised the modular motors come intake to oil pan. The pushrods motors come less an intake but I can't see any one of those intakes being more than 40 lbs.
forestgreen95gt is offline

OK...from Sean Hyland Motorsports...the mod motor guru's so to speak:

Aluminum DOHC - 550 lbs

Iron SOHC - 610 lbs

5.4L Navigator - 660 lbs

This is what they say...and they should know.”

Even the “guru’s” seem to disagree. I can understand you reason for needing to know the spring rates, but hey if the cobra springs are a turn-on, grab them, you can always unload them at a profit.
Personally i would look at the 95 model year (i think they may have had both 4.6 & 5.0 engines that year???) spring coil diameter, extended length, rate etc.. look online to see if they are progressive rate or just a spring, are the shox different?? You can get a lot of info by reading between the lines. Shocks can tell you a lot of info. Now don’t forget, the lower control arm length can also influence the spring rates, the 4.6 L/C/A are longer….so you may have a gray area there….

If at first you do not succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed. It all comes out in the wash, I’ve always heard no pain-no gain, and pain is a great tool of institution, yeah it’s a pain in the ass, and there is no exact science.
The best advice id give you is NOT to change the springs until you have the new engine IN the car, and see the stance and feel it for yourself. You’ll never get those springs in without the engine in the car, trust me i tried it, and had to do the chop/chop to get them in so i could roll the dammed thing outside. these cars are SO light, you’ll lift the car before the ball joint even gets close the steering knuckle.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:13 pm

I wonder if the "302 GT40" is an aluminum head version or not. I know they make aluminum GT40 heads now. Haha, obviously, I guess since the 351 on their list has them. If the 302 GT40 is the iron head version, it looks like the 4.6 is significantly heavier, isn't it? I wonder why.

Those Ford racing springs I'm looking at say they drop a 4.6 car more than a 5.0 car. I wonder if my car would end up with a droopy tail with the 302 under the hood (the front end might sit higher with a lighter engine). Hard to say.

I'm sure you're right about maybe ending up unhappy with my springs if I do it before putting in the new engine. The ones I have now though are SO bad, I really need to do SOMETHING. I plan to do a lot of cruising this next summer, and I'm not doing that with the suspension in the shape it's in. I'll probably go forward on the assumption I won't be swapping engines, but if I do run into a screaming deal on a 5.8, cross that bridge when I come to it. Those Cobra springs, the guy wants $80 for them, and that sounds steep to me for used parts. You can get new springs for not much more. So, I don't know. Maybe I talk him down, grab them, and save them in case I get the 5.8. Sounds like an iron head 5.8 should weigh pretty close to the same as a 4.6. Closer than it is to a 5.0's weight, anyway...

I know you have to take what people say on a forum with a grain of salt. I have a guy trying to sell me an Explorer engine now too for $500, but it's a '99 with the different type of EGR, so I don't know if I could use it with my existing electronics.

Yeah, I've spent a lot of years "sucking" with this project, haha. And I will NOT be changing springs without an engine, haha. And I never buy a car part expecting to be able to sell it at a profit. I just don't have the patience. I want the stuff gone if I don't need it. I have too little room for that kind of thing. Although, if I do find an Explorer intake at my favorite junkyard, I looked up their price and it's $15 per intake part. Like say if the intake is two halves, like an Explorer intake is, it would be $30. Now THAT'S something I could sell at a profit! Guys are selling those for up to $300 on eBay!
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:54 am

Many frt coil springs are the same, however they use different rate frt anti-roll bars, wheels & tires to tune the suspension. Sometimes shocks are “sport tuned” .
Ford has a tendency to use a hell of a lot of parts from the base mustang & mustang GT on the cobra. There are obviously some trim differences and sometimes brake parts are diff, eg rear rotors are ventilated, different master cylinder, later models had different frt calipers and rotors, different intakes, some other parts. Remember the cobra cars are production cars and they need to make a profit.
Before I’d pay 80 bones for a set of used Cobra springs, i would want to physically SEE the car they came from, 5.0 or 4.6 & how many miles. I’d be particularly interested in the size of the frt anti roll bar.
You’ll need to look up the specs between the coils such as wire diameter, load, extended length ETC. i’d feel like a turd if i bought a set of springs from a Cobra that were the same as a regular set. Ford also wraps a different colored tape to each spring to identify the spring rates.
Try going by the local Ford Stealer and have some face-time with the parts guy, as you build a relationship, after a while, parts prices usually drop.

I wanted to load the frt suspension on mine ,so I took it out very early yesterday to go thru the roundabout, i wanted to see if the frt tires would rub, i did it at a decent speed, , coming back, i went a little faster no probs. Obviously i will try at different speeds and angles just to see if there is a gremlin lurking, it does handle a little different with the 4.6 and sn-95 L/C/Arms. But i can’t really tell if it’s the weight of the engine, the lower control arms, AJE K-member or if it’s the new tires just yet, as i haven’t driven it since May, i did notice it was a bit smoother & quieter. I’ll know more once i get it out onto the road to Tombstone, that can be a really fun road; loads of hills & dips and sharp corners. The asphault is fairly rough also, however I’m not confident enough just yet.

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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:27 am

I can't believe you have SN95 control arms on your car without causing MAJOR problems! They're so much longer! I saw before and after pics from a guy who swapped them onto a Fox Mustang, and afterwards, the wheels stuck WAY out!

Yeah, I'll spend some time on Napa's website looking that stuff up. I'm still not against getting custom rate springs from like Moog or something.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:09 pm

I’ll try to post pix of my frt wheels in the arches, I've had no problems yet...... remember we have Fairmont's, I think in ‘88 or’ 90 the mustang arches were widened and opened-up a bit. Then again, I have to know for sure, as soon as somebody tells me it won’t fit, I’m hard-headed & I'll try it.
As the L/C/A are longer, there will be a natural camber correction required, once corrected with caster camber plates, the geometry is improved. You can actually feel it when you turn the frt wheels with your hands. However i am using the 97 L/C/A and they are the same size and dimensions for the k-member as the fox. Remember the SN95 is still pretty much built on the fox platform. The wheels are ok in the arches, not off-center. I’m pretty salty when it comes to online info also, i just have the luxury to have enough parts to correct my mistakes if i make a balls-up.
I was serious about cobra parts and mustang parts, sooo many are interchangeable because they are the same. Ford Racing only offers 1 set of lowering springs for 79-03. Sounds sketchy about cobra springs don’t it???? i had a quick look this morning, nobody asked about the cobra option when looking for the frt springs.
I’m not a mustang reference catalog, but i am fairly familiar with them. When it stops being fun, I’ll stop and move on to something else. People still drop-off parts now and then or ask questions, there seems to be a lot of people in love with the older cars, so we’ll see.
i don’t join clubs because I’m too poor, however; the country club was offering free membership even for reprobates…….
Some guys spend more money on wheels and tires than i spent on my car, i don’t need that kind of trouble, but i do actually drive mine not stand beside it. some guys are going thru second childhood, so as I have never grown-up, I suppose I'll suffer from that later.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:13 am

hers some info on Cobra springs versus 5.0 springs
be advised that the cobra uses a smaller diameter frt anti roll bar.

Autozone

This product is a fit for your:
1995 Ford Mustang Cobra 5.0L SFI 8cyl
Part Number: FCS8594S
Alternate Part Number: CS8594

This product is a fit for your:
1995 Ford Mustang 5.0L SFI HO 8cyl
Part Number: FCS8594S
Alternate Part Number: CS8594
Price: $68.99

Orielys
Cobra
Moog - Coil Spring Set

Part Number: 8594

Line: MOOG
limited lifetime warranty
• UPC: 80066110714
•Spring Rate (Lbs/In): 383 Lbs./In
•Bar Size (In): 0.62 Inch

5.0
Moog - Coil Spring Set

Part Number: 8594

Line: MOOG
limited lifetime warranty
• UPC: 80066110714
•Front
•Constant Rate Springs
•With Air Conditioning
•Spring Rate (Lbs/In): 383 Lbs./In
•Bar Size (In): 0.62 Inch

$93.99 per Box


I didn't try the ford part# yesterday, we only had one parts clerk.

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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:30 pm

I'm a little confused. I see that they both have the same part number, like you said, but what is $68.99, and what is $93.99?

I liked the idea of Cobra stuff because the Cobra started off in '93 as primarily a more mature handling package (not as much of a punishing ride) with a bit more power. Very classy. But that was before the '03 Terminator Cobra came along and then it was all about ridiculous power after that, continuing on into the GT500. I think the recent Boss 302 kind of took over where the first SVT Cobras left off.

Anyway, so if I want a Cobra ride, I need a different sway bar, huh? The one I have now, I'm pretty sure is from a '90 V8 Mustang.

I still don't know what to do about front struts though too. My '94 spindles have a narrower flange at the lower strut mount than Fox cars had. I bought some new Fox GT struts once, but took them back because the lower strut mount was too wide for my spindle. There was no way to bolt them on without inventing some kind of spacer. I tried finding the spacer, thinking someone makes it, but no one does. I can't believe no one else has ever had this problem! I posted it on a few forums and never got a satisfactory answer.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:16 pm

there is a difference in price from parts house to parts house, however they do price match, they are all probably made by MOOG anyway.
you are correct, if you want a cobra ride. change the frt anti roll bar, it's usually smaller, but they sometimes used different tire & wheel combos also to offset other performance/handling issues. I don't know of a single site that would give the amount of info and specs I want to know.
you just have to read and read and then read between the lines. just look at the SVO with 16 inch wheels and a bad assed steering rack!
im using 2000GT frt spindles, rotors & brakes with PBR dual piston calipers. I have 2000 GT frt shocks, MAC performance caster camber plates. 97 L/C/A, (7 Mustang GT frt springs and 2000 model ball joints with an original frt (?) anti roll bar. it all works pretty good, so far, but you'll have to form your own opinions.
your right about the frt shocks on a FOX, they do mount differently to the spindles, I was absolutely irate as mine were less than a year old, bummer. I have "swayed" away from the 33 mm frt anti roll bar at least for now. I will not install the SN95 roll bar onto my car, its a lot wider than the fox ones.
I'm wondering if the guy you spoke about used a stock k-member from a 99+ mustang, I believe the the k-members are wider than the SN95, I'm a little uncertain, however the fox swaps with the sn95 L/C/A but 99+ L/C/A are not interchangeable with the fox or SN95 k-members.
nothing I say about my car is written in stone, it's all a work in progress/hobby that I just keep good notes on. it may work for me, but I have a coupe. it either works or it don't.
maximum motorsports has some pretty good L/C/A and so does AJE, but for now I'm satisfied. I will get around to doing some research on the frt shocks soon. I'll probably go with NAPA as their shocks are made by Tenneco. I just feel there might be some good info there.
I know that when you dive into the info & specs pool, make sure there is plenty water. you can go too deep and just confuse the hell out of yourself and get a brain cramp, when that happens, you'll never get anything done, you'll just flame out & stall. It's got to be fun or its not worth it.
what frt struts are you using currently?
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PostSubject: Re: Update on this year's projects!   Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:34 am

My front struts are from the same '01 GT my front brakes are from. Probably the same as what you have. They aren't worn out or anything, but I had been hoping to have an all-matched setup when I bought my Fox GT front springs. My c/c plates are QA1. I was thinking of getting different lower control arms when I was getting coilovers, but now, I don't see much reason to. I just put new bushings on these anyway. I guess I'm just really hoping it'll fix the ride just to swap out the springs with higher quality, lower riding ones, since the ones I have now make the car sit so unnaturally high.
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Update on this year's projects!
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