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fangar150-ex




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PostSubject: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeFri Sep 07, 2012 9:10 am

i have been playing around lately with different OEM anti-roll/sway bars lately and wanted to share some info. the Fairmont i bought a few months back drove like a cold buggar on a paper plate when you turned, and it had new shocks! any way you can make your decisions and go from there. just remember biggest aint always better, but bigger is better . the info is from modded mustangs and maximum motorsports. just a note, the lower control arms on most mustangs are a direct fit, and most have the holes predrilled.


• OEM Mustang Sway Bar Sizes - Modded Mustangs - Ford Mustang ...

OEM Mustang Sway Bar Sizes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, I'm looking into making my car corner neutral to slight oversteer, so I'm researching what sway bars diameters are out there and what will work best for my intended purpose (and keep weight down).

Now I heard the SN95 sway bars are lighter because they're hollow... is that correct?

I also know that increasing the front bar diameter will make things flatter in the corners but it will also add to the tendency to understeer. I noticed for example, the '93 Cobra uses smaller front sway bar diameters (28.5 mm) than the '87-'93 mustang GT (30mm) in order to reduce understeer.

So... I think a hollow 94-98 SN95 V6 front bar (27mm) and a 94-98 SN95 V8 rear bar (24mm) might be the hot ticket on stock springs.

Good idea or should I get more aggressive with the bars/springs? These bars are going on a daily driver convert. so if you think i should try a different combo, let me know.

BTW, here's what I found out so far on bar sizes...

84-86 Mustang 5.0
28.5mm front
20mm rear

87-88 T-Bird Turbo
?? front
21mm rear

87-93 Mustang 5.0 (xcpt Cobra)
33mm front
19 or 21mm rear

94-98 Mustang 5.0 / 4.6 (xcpt Cobra)
30mm front
24mm rear

1999 Mustang 4.6 (xcpt Cobra)
28mm front
23mm rear

2000 Mustang 4.6 (xcpt Cobra)
27mm front
24mm rear

1993 Mustang Cobra
28.5mm front
31mm rear

94-95 Mustang Cobra
25mm front
27mm rear

96-98 Mustang Cobra
29mm front
27mm rear

94-97 Mustang 3.8
27mm front
21mm rear

98-99 Mustang 3.8
27mm front
no rear

00-01 Mustang 3.8
25.4mm front
no rear

More info (as per maximum motorsports website)

Front Bars:
1979 4Cyl 1"
1979 V8 27mm (1-1/16")
1980-93 4Cyl with base suspension 15/16"
1980-82 GT 1"
1983-84 GT 1-1/8"
1984-86 SVO 1-1/4"
1979-84 with TRX package 1-1/8"
1985-86 4Cyl with HD suspension 1-1/8"
1985-93 5.0 1-5/16" (33mm)
1993 Cobra 1-1/8"
1993 Cobra R 1-5/16" (33mm)
1994-95 Cobra 25mm
1994-98 GT 30mm
1996-98 Cobra 29mm
1994-99 V6 27mm (1-1/16")
1999 GT 28mm
2000-04 GT 27mm (1-1/16")
1999-01 Cobra 28mm
2000-04 V6 1"
2000 Cobra R 28mm
2001 Bullitt 28mm
2003-04 Cobra 29mm
2003-04 Mach 1 28mm

Front Swaybar Bushings : Maximum Motorsports, the Latemodel Mustang Performance Suspension Leader!

Front Swaybar Bushings
Urethane bushings are direct replacements for the stock soft rubber pivot bushings.
• Fits stock Mustang swaybar brackets only.
• Improves steering response by eliminating the deflection allowed by rubber pivot bushings.
• Increased durability and longevity.
• If you have an MM swaybar relocation kit, instead use the universal front swaybar bushings.
To purchase, scroll down to find your vehicle in the table, and then click on the part number.
• To ensure ordering the correct bushings, measure your front swaybar.
• Table reflects best available information, but we cannot guarantee your Mustang's swaybar size: measure your front swaybar.
Most common application Size Part #
1979 4Cyl 1" 6-1122-BL

1979 GT 27mm (1-1/16") 6-1135-BL

1980-93 4Cyl with base suspension 15/16" 6-1121-BL

1980-82 GT 1" 6-1122-BL

1983-84 GT 1-1/8" 6-1124-BL

1984-86 SVO 1-1/4" 6-1125-BL

1979-84 with TRX package 1-1/8" 6-1124-BL

1985-86 4Cyl with HD suspension 1-1/8" 6-1124-BL

1985-93 GT 1-5/16" (33mm) 6-1126-BL

1993 Cobra 1-1/8" 6-1124-BL

1993 Cobra R 1-5/16" (33mm) 6-1126-BL

1994-95 Cobra 25mm 6-1134-BL

1994-98 GT 30mm 6-1137-BL

1996-98 Cobra 29mm 6-1136-BL

1994-99 V6 27mm (1-1/16") 6-1135-BL

1999 GT 28mm 6-1155-BL

2000-04 GT 27mm (1-1/16") 6-1135-BL

1999-01 Cobra 28mm 6-1155-BL

2000-04 V6 1" 6-1122-BL

2000 Cobra R 28mm 6-1155-BL

2001 Bullitt 28mm 6-1155-BL

2003-04 Cobra 29mm 6-1136-BL

2003-04 Mach 1 27mm 6-1135-BL

Some aftermarket swaybars 1-3/8" 6-1133-BL



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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeMon Oct 22, 2012 12:22 am

That's some great info on swaybars and where to get them.

A word of caution when it comes to big front bars: The Fairmont/Zephyr chassis, and other earlier Foxes, aren't designed with big bars in mind, and don't have the reinforced swaybar mount of the later cars. I tore a swaybar mount out of the frame with a '90 GT front bar and Motorsport "Sports" springs. If you need more front roll stiffness, think hard about increasing springs, and keeping a smaller bar.

That said, if you want your car to really get down in the turns, think about ditching the 4link rear suspension for something that actually works. I use an Evolution Motorsports Tri-link and a Watts link, and my car pulls over 1g lateral. If you don't wanna spend that much, then thinking about a bigger bar for the rear should help with making the car loosen up some.

You had said about increasing the front roll stiffness, and how that could make a push. One thing about our cars' suspension design, and MacPherson strut suspension geometry in general. It sucks so bad that the best way to make it do serious work is to deny it motion. If you want to seriously turn, you pretty much need to spring the crap out of the whole car. It ain't comfy in the least, but it does help it turn.

You always bring such good tech.

Later,
Mike.
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fangar150-ex




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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeWed Oct 24, 2012 9:23 am


I am only a lowly electrician, with a wild imagination and a passion to “see what happens if we try this”(without going thru re-hab). I like to play around with junk and spare or used parts; I have found a lot of interesting things out, bigger isn’t always better, and one size don’t fit all. As in the 33mm front anti roll, yeah it keeps the car level; however it does seem to introduce a certain amount of under steer, this has its advantages as well.
I work with a fellow named Richard who was a suspension tech for Big-O; he seemed to meet the right people and has a vast knowledge of suspensions, he mentioned early-on that the suspension on the Fairmont’s and all Foxes were primitive. This was the main reason why we changed over to the sn-95 mustang suspension. Yes it made some difference, but it still aint a race car by any means.
I am glad you told me about the mountings, I will take heed and update that area of the chassis when I put the 4.6 in. I’ll probably be using the smaller bar in the future. The watts link is “unobtanium” at the moment and probably into the distant future. The 4.6 installation is not going as planned due to a severe & prolonged lack of funds. I want an AJE tubular cross member; however I am considering using a stock sn-95 k member, just to get the ball rolling, I just hate doing things twice.
I’ve tried the mustang reclaimation/recycling service, but if someone only wants a mirror, tail lamp or a switch, that’s all they want!! I can’t store things forever just hoping for a sale, and now it seems that every mustang is “special” when it comes to selling it. I don’t give a flip how fast the car was, or who owned it, it’s just a load of parts to me. The local salvage merchant doesn’t care either, he charges to haul them off.
The Fairmont chassis is by no means rigid! In fact it’s a bit like a wet paper towel unless strengthen it up yourself. I kinda think the box tops may be a bit more rigid. They were mass-produced sub compact cars for the masses, not for road racing, and certainly weren’t made to last, but I do like the styling.
I want a 4.6 litre cruiser (with a twist) that I can depend on, however I am never happy with anything for very long, that’s why I’m always changing something around.
Recently I went to a SCCA autocross in our location, it was done on the cheap, but they were very strict in their rules which I liked. Every participant had to work the track; therefore the upper-class were forced to mingle with the reprobates which made an interesting meet. The officials allowed ridealongs, so I took the opportunity to “ride along” with my buddy Dave in his 4.6 mustang. The person who did the track layout screwed the course down tighter than a fly in a pecan shell, and only the short lead-up and return straight allowed any speed. I hadn’t been to an autocross since living in England because I thought they were cheesy over here. BUT watching and participating on this track I at least had stirred some interest. I’m not sure what the G-force was in Dave’s Mustang, but at times I felt like a marble in a wine glass.
I believe the track was more suited to the rice burners, but there was a C something? Corvette, a supercharged Rousch , a couple of foxes, Camaros, and a Prowler and given the circumstances it made for an interesting morning. I felt sorry for the Rousch and Corvette as they looked like a turd in a punch bowl until the return straightaway. Mind you, being truthful, those cones can damage any car, not just the older ones.
Getting back to the purpose of the communication, there is a formula for suspension setups, road surface, tire compounds, spring rates, shocks/struts/coil-overs, roll bars, tires, steering geometry, brakes, weight placement, speed and axle lengths .it is very complicated, but seems to work, as there were so many replies to each posting. I think I saw the info in a suspension site and either referred to on Modded Mustangs or one of the other Mustang sites.
Judging by some of your previous postings, and you racing participation I’m certain you are aware of all this stuff, but when I tried to digest it, I lost interest quickly due to all the math involved, it really seemed more of a science, having never applied any of these principles, it may be easier than it appears???XX!!
I’m ok with amps/volts & ohm’s, but G force and torsional loading invites me to again display my ignorance in yet another subject!
I watched you videos, they were way cool, I like you single exhaust note, it sounds really clean and crisp. You seem to have a well handling car that most people would be happy to watch and cheer-on.
I like to see people having fun, it’s gotta be a blast to burn around on a track alongside Porsches, Minis etc. with such nice turns and braking areas.
What is your average speed on that track?
I wish you all the luck in the world, just bring it home safely.
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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeWed Oct 24, 2012 2:22 pm

Hmmm. There must be something about electricians and Fairmonts. That's what I do for a living as well.

As for the science and math of it, I don't really participate in a lot of that. I do read a lot of stuff, and stuff from different racing diciplines. I got the basic idea that I wanted to do something about the rear suspension geometry. It took me five years to be able to afford it, but it was worth every penny. The autocross video was actually with the old rear suspension. It was fairly nimble, but prone to snap oversteer. The stock four link is also very hard on the car. I was starting to do things like crack the floor. You could hear it pop and you could hear the floor "oilcanning" when you hit the throttle.

A class called C something? It's C Prepared. Bad news...it's the class you will be in. I know your pain. It's where I am. A car driven onthe street will never be nationally competitive there, so concentrate on having fun and learning. You will impress lots of people when you autocross a Fairmont.

I turned a best of a 1:56 at Summit Point Shenandoah Circuit. There was a 350Z there that has an in-car video that you might be able to find that turned faster laps than me, but his driving was absolute crap. I wouldn't have wanted to be his instructor. He had way better brakes than I did. As far as my speed and times, I tend toward caution. On the back straight, I wouldn't use full throttle in fifth at all, and I was braking 200 feet before the braking point. At one point, I even used the tires as brakes by pitching the car sideways. But you can see from how far I was from the edge on track-out that I was going easy. Thanks for watching.
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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeThu Oct 25, 2012 3:23 am

I ran out of time earlier...had to go to work.

In the longer track video, you may have noticed the silver Porsche in front and the white Porsche behind at the beginning. The silver one was a Cayman, and the white was a Cayman S. You may have also noted that the white car came blasting around me, seemingly out of nowhere. I had seen him back there, and I was waiting for him to catch up enough for me to feel the need to point him by (all passes are signalled by the car being passed), but he just never got close enough. So, I slowed, and gave him the wave by even though he was very far back. My idea was to then run him down. Next thing I know, the power steering, which I had been having problems with all day, decided it was done, and locked up the pump. My water pump uses the power steering belt, so I was done for the day.

Also, about the oversteer caused by a big bar up front: if you put a big enough bar on the back to get the balance back, you might find that the whole car is pretty good.
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fangar150-ex




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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeMon Oct 29, 2012 12:18 am

I like a lot motor racing forms , drag racing, rallye, super cars and if it’s a good race I can watch it for hours, for instance Lemans!!! There are so many groups all blasting around day and night; it is the ultimate endurance race for man and machine. I reckon you should be proud to hold your own with the cars on the track that day, even if you came in dead last at least you were there.
You are correctomundo about the bigger bar in the rear; yeah it will certainly solve some issues with the front. But it’s going to be hard to get a neutral steer at all speeds with my heap without a lot of work. I think the box top may be a set on a bit stiffer platform; after all it is 4 inches shorter….i would assume the 2dr would be stiffer.
I have also tried different tire and wheel sizes on the car as well as pressure settings, it seems with a larger wheel diameter and lower profile tires, the car handles better. One would assume that with a larger wheel, and lower profile tire there is less opportunity for sidewall flex, giving an immediate sense of performance gain.
I have gone to 16in wheels some time ago from the 05 & 06 mustangs, the 215/65/ 16 tires were great for cruising, gave a good ride and were pretty quiet.
The 255/50/16 tires give a more positive performance feel, are a bit rougher riding and I think they fit the car better and I prefer them. Currently I am using the Michelin pilot tires, however with the lower profile I have noticed more feedback from the steering on rougher roads.
I tried the 17in wheels, but I lost a lot of steering turning angle and found they rub on the k-member when making sharp turns in the parking lots. I kinda liked them but they also rubbed on the rear, inside of the body when using the stock width rear end, I sold them before I put the 97 sn-95 rear end in, I think this would have been better for the rear as the axles are ¾ in longer on each side than stock, so the wheel should have been almost centered in the rear?? However the problem on the front would have remained, so fitting steering stops would be useless. Perhaps this problem the front could have been resolved using an aftermarket tubular k-member. This may be an option in the future.
When I first started to work on this car I fitted a power steering rack from an 86 SVO mustang, I thought it would be better for sharp maneuvers in town, and it was. Having used this rack I also noted that while cruising on the highway, you must concentrate, as it can be a bit nervous, and a cough or sneeze is totally unwelcome.
Using the mustang convertible motor mounts is supposed to lower the engine a bit, so that will give a lower center of gravity.
Another good addition was the radial ball bearings from the SN-95. This type of bearing offers more stability and less flex to the front rotors while cornering. I have heard of people losing their braking efficiency due to the rotors pushing the pads back into the calipers if the bearings are loose. Needless to say, the radial ball bearings are maintenance free.
It would be safe to say that almost anything done to the old Fairmont would be a performance enhancement which would be immediately noticed.
Anyway; keep the Beamers Minis, Nissans & porcshes busy.












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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeMon Oct 29, 2012 1:22 am

I would've still been okay if I got passed by everyone. Luckily, that didn't happen. I passed a couple of Minis, a Mercedes SLK350, a Porsche Cayman, a Cayman S, and the AI Mustang as mentioned earlier. There were a few other cars that I thought I should see in the mirror at some time, but I never did, and I never came up behind them, either. The notables among them were a Corvette, a sweet CRX (that passed the Vette in the video I posted), and the 350Z that was a hell of a car, but not quality driven. If I had some bigger brakes, I think I'd have passed some of those, too.

Getting neutral handling at all speeds is pretty near impossible. If you make it good at high speeds, it'll usually be a dead fish at low speeds, and if you make it turn at low speeds, it can tend toward instability at higher speeds. That's why you see autocross cars with big, comical wings or spoilers. They set the suspension to make it turn in nice down low, then use the downforce to settle it up top.

I run 225/45-16 at all four corners, on Pony rims. It takes different steering stops on both sides, and very careful adjustment of the tie rods to get my toe spec without rubbing the lower control arms while having the rack in the middle of the chassis when going straight. With my ride height, if I go any larger on the front, the outside edge of the tire will try to peel the fender off if I get into a big slide or a spin. I run 40 PSI on the front, and 35 PSI rear, to minimize tire wear at all four corners, and for the nicer turn in. You must think very straight thoughts at highway speeds. The rack, alignment settings, Borgeson steering shaft, power steering, and tires make sure that any time you even think of moving the wheel, there will be turning happening.

I can't agree with you on the bearings, though. I haven't been able to find any hard data on it, but I've heard of lots of guys that use their SN-95s in anger report pad knock back and short bearing life with the ball bearing hubs. Sure, they're maintenance free, but they're also maintenance free. That means that you can't put super-good grease in them, and make sure that they're set up just right. I would also have to think that the greater contact area of the tapered roller bearing would be able to take more stress. Like I said, no hard numbers there, just my thoughts from looking at the designs.

I sure am enjoying this discussion.

Later,
Mike.

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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeTue Oct 30, 2012 9:40 am

The reason why I am pro radial ball bearing is that you can apply zero to negative camber without destroying the bearing. Tapered bearing served the world for many years, and some vehicles still use them. They are just fine so far as they use positive camber. When using the negative camber, it tends to stress the smaller outside bearing and cause premature wear.
It’s kind of like drum brakes, some have 4 wheel discs and some still use rear drums.
I suppose it is down to choice as many things are. So far I have never seen this pad movement on my car, but then again I don’t drive it like you drive yours, mine is solely for recreation.
Having said so I do like the maintenance free part.
I would like to even see a track like you guys were on, all we get here is a portion of the local airports, I like to go because I have some friends that participate, and although most are not race cars, they have fun. They all seem to worry about breaking something or hitting the cones, one guy “got lost” in the cones, so he basically just did another recon lap!!! Next lap he lost the timing chain… There are a few cars that are painfully fast, but I wonder how they would perform on a track your size at the speeds you guys go…..i may have a go myself one day, but so far I just watch and use the 2.26 ratio diff as an excuse.
I would like to try some lower profile tires; I suppose a different set of wheels would also be in order as I don’t think they would look very nice with a lower profile tire. The tires I have now still have plenty of tread left, although they are showing signs of cracking on the top edges where the tread meets the sidewalls. I think this is a trait of the Michelins, and I have also seen it on the Pirellis, I don’t know why, maybe it’s the sun and the dry weather out here. Any way they will have to be used-up.
What gear ratio are you using? I was thinking as you have a 5 speed, you are probably running a lower gear. When I changed my rear end, I put a 3.08 in in. I had a v-6 rear end with 3.80 ( I think), both had rear disc brakes, but as I’m still using the c4 trans ,the lower ratio would be a no starter for hi-way use, I found that out years ago when I put a 3.73 in it.
Are you using manual or power brakes, I’ve seen some people go to manual brakes and manual steering when they put in larger cam. There are a few people on the other sites using the flaming river steering parts; I had read on their site that they do all kinds of stuff, not just racks. I wanted a replacement for the rag-joint when doing the later steering columns and/or racks. It seems they have a lot of bases covered.
I did find that the sn-95 steering rack are pretty much the same as the fox racks, the main difference being the length of the outer tie roads are longer, but you can exchange them to the fox racks, and the rack input shafts are different, round on the fox and triangular on the sn 95. I believe that flaming river stated they don’t have a rag joint replacement for the fox column to the sn-95 rack, but if the racks are pretty much the same physically, there should be no need to worry about this issue.
I shall go to the hydro boost when I put the 4.6 in. I have the hydro boost system now, but I need it to move the car around.
I’m very pleased how things have turned-out so far, and if I don’t like something I can just change it again. That’s why I mainly stick with mainly stock parts, they are plentiful and affordable. I’m not scared of drilling holes or enlarging holes, but I also feel a nibbler would be a handy tool to have.
I’ve got two mustangs to strip out soon, now that its getting cooler over here. One has the grey interior and looks good, the other has the brown & black leather interior (but looks awful) I want to lay the looms down and do the repairs before I put one in the car, both have been hit from the front. I have plenty of time to conduct the repairs and any mods that will be required to fit the loom to the car.
I bought a new cheapie camera for work a couple of weeks ago, it’s a Samsung, only costs 80 notes, but this time I’m going to take more photo’s to speed things up as I will be using a complete stock wiring loom. That should make it easier.
Im shifting a load of fox parts now, I have rear ends, a 160 mph speedo, another fox dash, valve covers, fuel injected intakes, wheels, fuel tanks etc, I need the room to store these newer parts. I get kinda anal about the small things like trunk opener, ding dongs for the lights and keys, and I like speed control. the big things always seem to go ok!
Keep blasting around and having fun. what stroker engine are you going to use? It seems that there are a couple for the 302 engine.
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Stymees'mont


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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeTue Nov 27, 2012 9:51 pm

I have '98 Mustang GT front and rear sway bars, but I also have QA1 front coil overs. I love the handling. Tho I also had to relocate the front sway bar mounts out board directly under the frame rails, as they are on the '98's.
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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeWed Nov 28, 2012 1:34 am

I've never heard about that limitation on tapered roller bearings. I've also never failed a tapered roller bearing, and I've been running anywhere between 1.5 and 2.5 degrees of negative camber for about fifteen years now. I do tend to keep my bearings well maintained, though.

As far as your 2.26 gear, that's no excuse! Just lock that puppy in first, and if you have a real long straight, you might need second. I have a 3.55 in my car, but it would be unlivable without the overdrive. Still, I consider going to a 3.08 from time to time. Seriously, though; try the autocross. You only have to drive as hard as you want to, and it teaches you so much about your car, and how to drive it when it hits the fan.

Stymee, what shocks and springs do you have?
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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeThu Dec 06, 2012 9:50 pm

The front are QA1 fully adjustable coil-overs, the rear bone stock '98 Mustang GT Monroe's. Some point I would like some rear coil-overs.
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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeFri Dec 07, 2012 2:33 pm

Spring rates?
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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeSun Dec 09, 2012 8:49 pm

imo the problem with tapered roller bearings and negative camber is that they dont mix. tapered bearings have a small cone and a big cone, this bearing combo was made for vehicles with positive camber, theforfore the load would be applied to the lager bearing and the forces applied would be toward the spindle on the knuckle. when running negative camber, all the load is applied to the smaller bearing and the small nut that is used for preloading the bearing. hell if it works, run with it...sometimes i spend too much time thinking.
one thing i liked aout the sn95 spindles is they have larger brakes and dual piston calipers. its all junk from mustangs so it was cheeeeeap.
i am a fan of negative camber and plenty of caster, however i am back to 0 camber to save my tires. they are getting old and have to last till i start the 4.6 install.
and if things go the way they are, it's no telling. we got a new boss and loads of changes, 1/2 the shop works every other weekend and the hours have been extended, this is poor timing for me, but oh well...
ihad to empty out a truck load of junk from the shop so i stored it in my mustang fleet behind the shop, i'm down to 4 cars in the back lot, so i gotta shift a lot of stuff and get rid of some more cars. i think i have a reprieve for the moment as the guys keep coming to me for wierd parts that are stored in them. i just got a 4.6 downpipe & rear exhaust for a mustang and its tied up to the side of my bech near the fridge and i put the swamp cooler in front of it to hide it.
i would like to have some coil overs also, just to see and feel the difference, i have no idea how they ride, but its got to be better that the shot crap shocks that i have now however they are "un-obtanium"for now. and this car is excess to requirements at the moment. i will get it done, but when?????
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Stymees'mont

Stymees'mont


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Join date : 2008-11-08
Age : 51
Location : Minnesota

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PostSubject: Re: anti roll bar info   anti roll bar info Icon_minitimeSat Dec 15, 2012 5:14 pm

Aug wrote:
Spring rates?

I cant remember exactly but they are like 2-1/2 ID 14-200 lbs
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